About us
CAVE FAMILY HISTORY SOCIETY
DNA PROJECT
REPORT No 1
27TH May 2007
Contents
1. Basis of Study
2. Present Cave Population in England
3. Progress
4. Definitions
5. Results
6. Conclusions
7. Future Plans
8. How to!
1. Basis of DNA Study
This study is based on the Genealogical research carried out by The Cave FHS and its members.
This is a worldwide coverage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, United States of America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
All areas covered have, at one time or another, originated in England.
It has been assumed that The Cave Family, as reported in “Sons of The Conqueror” by L G Pine, and established by Heralds visitations, originated in South Cave in Yorkshire.
However, P H Reaney in “Dictionary of British Surnames”, gives Cave origins in Yorkshire of names not included in Heralds Visitations. There is also reference to origins from the names of Chaff, Chaufe, Caulf, etc.
To confound the issue even more, surnames started to be used in the 12th/13th century based on place names. We have North Cave and South Cave in the East Riding of Yorkshire. It is highly probable that many people who had lived there, and moved away, called themselves de Cave (of Cave) as in Alexander de Cave, Peter de Cave.
Research in the Cave family of Sherington Manor in Buckinghamshire dated from the 15th Century back to the 13th Century hit this problem. The researcher could not, definitely, identify this family group with any particular family group in North and South Cave. There were too many families calling themselves de Cave.
A Nigel de Cave joined the Templars in 1185 from South Cave. There is no mention of this man in any of the recorded pedigrees.
It is obvious that there will be many different family groups of the Cave Family dating back to the 11th and 12th Century. To compound this even further, Professor David Hey uses a “rule of thumb” to forecast the possible numbers of ancestral groups based on deaths between 1842 and 1846. If this number is less than 10, averaged over the five years, then there is a good chance that the family had one ancestor. In our case we have a count of 71. This means that we are definitely looking at multiple ancestors!
This project is helping to clarify those many groups, and their location of origin, through DNA testing.
The project will also help to clarify research statements, mainly from America, of “born in England”.
Exact and close matches indicate potential “genetic families”. A null match does not necessarily mean that your family tree is wrong. Your DNA result is not your family history – your family (genealogical) tree is!
2. Present Cave Population in England
Based on an analysis of the Cave population, as suggested by Chris Pomeroy in “DNA in Family History”, it is estimated that the current adult male population of England is in the order of:
Cave2,535
Caves 137
Cavey 142
Cavie 146
Cave-Browne Nil – (although one member in Scotland is a C-B)
Cave-Browne-Cave 10
Of these we have identified 525 Cave(s) adult male entries in the societies collection of Pedigree Tables. This represents about 20% of the adult population in England and Wales.
We also have 16 Cave-Browne-Cave’s (over the projected number).
3. Progress
The Cave Family History Society DNA Project was launched in October 2006.
Ten members of the society formed the core group. They agreed a modus operandi and selected Family Tree DNA, in Houston Texas, as the testing laboratory.
At the date of preparing this report we have 21 participants with 18 results to hand.
The results achieved are based, in the majority, on 12 Marker tests. 6 of these have been extended to 37 marker tests.
4. Definitions
Markers/Distance
Markers are the nomenclature of Short Term Repeats within the Y chromosome. As can be seen from the charts below, they are represented by numbers and letters. The results are also numbers. This is a very simplified explanation. To read more obtain a booklet by Chris Pomeroy, DNA and Family History. Try www.DNAandFamilyHistory.com .
The numbers representing the results of each marker, and each test, are the means of discovering relationships.
Within a series of 12 Marker tests, (low definition), “distance” is expressed as a calculation of the numbers of matches and mismatches. Therefore:
12/12 match gives a distance of 0= Related. One shares a common ancestor within your surname, or variant.
11/12 match gives a distance of1=Possible relationship.
10/12 match gives a distance of2=Probably not related.
Within a series of 37 marker tests, (high definition), there is a better chance of defining this relationship. Threfore:
37/37 match gives a distance of0=Very tightly related. The relationship is extremely close with a common ancestor within 16 generations.
36/37 match gives a distance of1=Tightly related. Very few people can achieve this level of a match.
35/37 match gives a distance of2=Related.
34/37 match gives a distance of3=Related.
It is unfortunate that the above did not become clear until we received our test results. This was further clarified in reading Chris Pomeroy’s book.
From this it becomes obvious that tests should be at this higher definition so that we can resolve some of the conundrums posed in the tables of results.
5. Results
As predicted above, there are very diverse results. This confirms that there are several family groups with the name Cave (or derivatives).
Of these results, 8 show a 12/12 marker match (0 distance). Within this group, 4 have extended to 37 markers. Of these four, 2 have 37/37 marker match (0 distance). One is 36/37 marker match (distance of 1) and the other 35/37 marker match (distance of 2).
To reconcile the above we refer to tables produced by FT DNA.
At 12 Markers a distance of 0 means that the 8 share a common ancestor.
At 37 Markers a distance of 0 means that the 2 participants are “very tightly related” and share a common ancestor, with a 90% probability, within 16 generations. This is by, about, 1500.
At 37 markers a distance of 1 means that the 2 above and one other are “tightly related”. A distance of 2 means that the fourth person is related.
All of the above “mismatches” are in “fast moving markers” where genetic mutations can be expected.
A main group of eight 12 Marker results have been identified. These results are:
These 8 identical results have a distance of 0 indicating that they share a common ancestor.
This same group has four 37 Marker results.
The second and fourth results have a perfect match. As stated above, they are “very tightly related”. The Oldest Known Ancestor is, in one case, 1581, and the other 1745. The most important fact here is that the former is in Northamptonshire and the latter Virginia USA!
The next batch is of two participants who have taken a 12 marker test. They are both from Lancashire and have a common ancestor in 1675. This is a confirmation, by genetic testing, of genealogical research.
It can be seen that there is a difference in the results to indicate of distance of 5 from Group 1. Therefore, not related and no chance of sharing a common ancestor in over a thousand years. Again proof of different origins of the same family name.
The next batch is of two participants, again of 12 marker test. One is from Somerset, Oldest Known Ancestor in 1600, the other Hampshire in 1810.
In this case there is a difference of 1. This indicates a possible relationship. It is recommended that further markers should be tested to prove this case. It also means that the possible origins of this family group are in Somerset and totally different to others.
The next batch is, again, of two participants and, again, of 12 marker tests. Both have origins in the Warwickshire/Leicestershire area.
In this case there is a difference of 1. Again this indicates a possible relationship. Further tests are required. However, the first result in this group has a difference of 2 from Group 1 above which indicates a possible relationship. Further tests are required from other male Cave’s in this genealogical group.
Four other test results prove the possibility of more family groups not related to the above.
6. Conclusions
The above results confirm that there are many different groups of the Cave family based, not only from North and South Cave but from other parts of the country.
It must also be remembered that The Norman Army ransacked Yorkshire to put down rebellions. They could have populated the area with people from different parts of the country. There would also have been a strong Norman presence in this area as well as locals.
7. Future Plans
•To promote the project.
•To locate members within the groups already tested to prove results.
•To extend tests to a higher definition, ie 37 marker.
•To double the participants by October 2007.
•To prepare a report every six months and circulate details to participants.
•To publish brief reports in the Cave FHS Newsletter and web-site.
8. How to!
Existing members who have tested at 12 Markers – you can now extend your results to 37 markers. This is done by contacting Family Tree DNA through your own contact information and requesting this service. Two members have already done this.
For new members overseas – contact www.familytreedna.com , search for The Cave Family History DNA Project by entering Cave in the search box. Then request the 37 Marker Test. This will be sent to you direct.
I, Hugh Cave, hugh-cave@cave-fhs.org.uk hold a stock of kits for sale to UK participants only.
Report prepared by Hugh Cave DNA Project Administrator3rd June 2007
DNA PROJECT
REPORT No 1
27TH May 2007
Contents
1. Basis of Study
2. Present Cave Population in England
3. Progress
4. Definitions
5. Results
6. Conclusions
7. Future Plans
8. How to!
1. Basis of DNA Study
This study is based on the Genealogical research carried out by The Cave FHS and its members.
This is a worldwide coverage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, United States of America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
All areas covered have, at one time or another, originated in England.
It has been assumed that The Cave Family, as reported in “Sons of The Conqueror” by L G Pine, and established by Heralds visitations, originated in South Cave in Yorkshire.
However, P H Reaney in “Dictionary of British Surnames”, gives Cave origins in Yorkshire of names not included in Heralds Visitations. There is also reference to origins from the names of Chaff, Chaufe, Caulf, etc.
To confound the issue even more, surnames started to be used in the 12th/13th century based on place names. We have North Cave and South Cave in the East Riding of Yorkshire. It is highly probable that many people who had lived there, and moved away, called themselves de Cave (of Cave) as in Alexander de Cave, Peter de Cave.
Research in the Cave family of Sherington Manor in Buckinghamshire dated from the 15th Century back to the 13th Century hit this problem. The researcher could not, definitely, identify this family group with any particular family group in North and South Cave. There were too many families calling themselves de Cave.
A Nigel de Cave joined the Templars in 1185 from South Cave. There is no mention of this man in any of the recorded pedigrees.
It is obvious that there will be many different family groups of the Cave Family dating back to the 11th and 12th Century. To compound this even further, Professor David Hey uses a “rule of thumb” to forecast the possible numbers of ancestral groups based on deaths between 1842 and 1846. If this number is less than 10, averaged over the five years, then there is a good chance that the family had one ancestor. In our case we have a count of 71. This means that we are definitely looking at multiple ancestors!
This project is helping to clarify those many groups, and their location of origin, through DNA testing.
The project will also help to clarify research statements, mainly from America, of “born in England”.
Exact and close matches indicate potential “genetic families”. A null match does not necessarily mean that your family tree is wrong. Your DNA result is not your family history – your family (genealogical) tree is!
2. Present Cave Population in England
Based on an analysis of the Cave population, as suggested by Chris Pomeroy in “DNA in Family History”, it is estimated that the current adult male population of England is in the order of:
Cave2,535
Caves 137
Cavey 142
Cavie 146
Cave-Browne Nil – (although one member in Scotland is a C-B)
Cave-Browne-Cave 10
Of these we have identified 525 Cave(s) adult male entries in the societies collection of Pedigree Tables. This represents about 20% of the adult population in England and Wales.
We also have 16 Cave-Browne-Cave’s (over the projected number).
3. Progress
The Cave Family History Society DNA Project was launched in October 2006.
Ten members of the society formed the core group. They agreed a modus operandi and selected Family Tree DNA, in Houston Texas, as the testing laboratory.
At the date of preparing this report we have 21 participants with 18 results to hand.
The results achieved are based, in the majority, on 12 Marker tests. 6 of these have been extended to 37 marker tests.
4. Definitions
Markers/Distance
Markers are the nomenclature of Short Term Repeats within the Y chromosome. As can be seen from the charts below, they are represented by numbers and letters. The results are also numbers. This is a very simplified explanation. To read more obtain a booklet by Chris Pomeroy, DNA and Family History. Try www.DNAandFamilyHistory.com .
The numbers representing the results of each marker, and each test, are the means of discovering relationships.
Within a series of 12 Marker tests, (low definition), “distance” is expressed as a calculation of the numbers of matches and mismatches. Therefore:
12/12 match gives a distance of 0= Related. One shares a common ancestor within your surname, or variant.
11/12 match gives a distance of1=Possible relationship.
10/12 match gives a distance of2=Probably not related.
Within a series of 37 marker tests, (high definition), there is a better chance of defining this relationship. Threfore:
37/37 match gives a distance of0=Very tightly related. The relationship is extremely close with a common ancestor within 16 generations.
36/37 match gives a distance of1=Tightly related. Very few people can achieve this level of a match.
35/37 match gives a distance of2=Related.
34/37 match gives a distance of3=Related.
It is unfortunate that the above did not become clear until we received our test results. This was further clarified in reading Chris Pomeroy’s book.
From this it becomes obvious that tests should be at this higher definition so that we can resolve some of the conundrums posed in the tables of results.
5. Results
As predicted above, there are very diverse results. This confirms that there are several family groups with the name Cave (or derivatives).
Of these results, 8 show a 12/12 marker match (0 distance). Within this group, 4 have extended to 37 markers. Of these four, 2 have 37/37 marker match (0 distance). One is 36/37 marker match (distance of 1) and the other 35/37 marker match (distance of 2).
To reconcile the above we refer to tables produced by FT DNA.
At 12 Markers a distance of 0 means that the 8 share a common ancestor.
At 37 Markers a distance of 0 means that the 2 participants are “very tightly related” and share a common ancestor, with a 90% probability, within 16 generations. This is by, about, 1500.
At 37 markers a distance of 1 means that the 2 above and one other are “tightly related”. A distance of 2 means that the fourth person is related.
All of the above “mismatches” are in “fast moving markers” where genetic mutations can be expected.
A main group of eight 12 Marker results have been identified. These results are:
These 8 identical results have a distance of 0 indicating that they share a common ancestor.
This same group has four 37 Marker results.
The second and fourth results have a perfect match. As stated above, they are “very tightly related”. The Oldest Known Ancestor is, in one case, 1581, and the other 1745. The most important fact here is that the former is in Northamptonshire and the latter Virginia USA!
The next batch is of two participants who have taken a 12 marker test. They are both from Lancashire and have a common ancestor in 1675. This is a confirmation, by genetic testing, of genealogical research.
It can be seen that there is a difference in the results to indicate of distance of 5 from Group 1. Therefore, not related and no chance of sharing a common ancestor in over a thousand years. Again proof of different origins of the same family name.
The next batch is of two participants, again of 12 marker test. One is from Somerset, Oldest Known Ancestor in 1600, the other Hampshire in 1810.
In this case there is a difference of 1. This indicates a possible relationship. It is recommended that further markers should be tested to prove this case. It also means that the possible origins of this family group are in Somerset and totally different to others.
The next batch is, again, of two participants and, again, of 12 marker tests. Both have origins in the Warwickshire/Leicestershire area.
In this case there is a difference of 1. Again this indicates a possible relationship. Further tests are required. However, the first result in this group has a difference of 2 from Group 1 above which indicates a possible relationship. Further tests are required from other male Cave’s in this genealogical group.
Four other test results prove the possibility of more family groups not related to the above.
6. Conclusions
The above results confirm that there are many different groups of the Cave family based, not only from North and South Cave but from other parts of the country.
It must also be remembered that The Norman Army ransacked Yorkshire to put down rebellions. They could have populated the area with people from different parts of the country. There would also have been a strong Norman presence in this area as well as locals.
7. Future Plans
•To promote the project.
•To locate members within the groups already tested to prove results.
•To extend tests to a higher definition, ie 37 marker.
•To double the participants by October 2007.
•To prepare a report every six months and circulate details to participants.
•To publish brief reports in the Cave FHS Newsletter and web-site.
8. How to!
Existing members who have tested at 12 Markers – you can now extend your results to 37 markers. This is done by contacting Family Tree DNA through your own contact information and requesting this service. Two members have already done this.
For new members overseas – contact www.familytreedna.com , search for The Cave Family History DNA Project by entering Cave in the search box. Then request the 37 Marker Test. This will be sent to you direct.
I, Hugh Cave, hugh-cave@cave-fhs.org.uk hold a stock of kits for sale to UK participants only.
Report prepared by Hugh Cave DNA Project Administrator3rd June 2007